TBT: When are Mortgage Rates Too High?

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Well, we have an interesting episode today because I was on the phone yesterday talking to one of my good buddies and industry veteran about mortgage financing and whatnot. And Aaron has been on the show multiple times and we were talking about interest rates and how they’ve gone up and is it too high and is it a bad thing, a good thing? Does it even really matter? And we thought, hey, let’s do a podcast episode on that because it’s actually a pretty good topic. ’cause I think a lot of real estate investors today are asking, well, are mortgage rates too high? And the answer to that question, well, I’ll just leave that till the end when we’re all wrapped up. So Aaron has been a veteran in the finance industry since 1997, and he’s been focused on real estate investors, which is why I love working with him so much. He just understands the game of investing and he knows how to structure mortgage financing. So it is optimized for what you want to do as a real estate investor. And he has a big team, I think it’s 22 total staff members that help him finance investment loans. And I just found out today that he was ranked number seven out of 1.1 million loan officers around the country, which puts him right up there in the top 0.01% of loan officers.

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So with that, Aaron, welcome back to the show.

Thanks buddy. Good to be back. I think this is number seven that we’ve done.

Number seven, how many I times

Have you’ve been on the show? Keep track. I think this is seventh Deal, the seventh podcast we’ve done together.

Oh wow. Well, I guess is that too much <laugh>?

Oh heck no, man. I’m waiting for, I can’t wait for number eight.

Well, you know, what is, is that too much? It segues right into the topic of today’s show, and that is when are mortgage rates too high? So, you know, obviously you and I probably have a biased answer to that and we’re, we’re gonna say that it’s never too high, but I guess it really comes down to different factors. And so, you know, let’s talk about those. So let’s just start off with that basic question. When are mortgage rates too high?

Well, I think the easiest way is to go back and look in history what mortgage rates have done. Now I get there’s different economic things that were happening at that time too, but rates have pushed as high as, you know, reaching 20% as far as a third year fixed mortgage. And there’s, there’s always an environment where a 30 year fixed or a mortgage period will work regardless of the interest rate. But I think when is the rate too high is a personal question to be asked by the individual investor, can he make the deal work or can they not make the deal work? So deals that we were doing that, that you would’ve done where it was very, very lean and you start pushing those, the interest rates go to a certain point. You can’t make the numbers work, you can’t find the deal work, then yeah, the rates, the rate might be too high, but I, I think it’s not a matter of rate, it’s just a matter of deal.

And I think also the rate itself ask, answering that question too high is really has to do with why is the person investing? Are they doing it because it’s just the right time, the whole world is doing it. Interest rates are low, costs are low. Yeah. That’s when everybody would do it. Anybody would invest when costs are low or, or cost of money is low. But that’s not real estate investing. That’s opportunist. Just it’s opportunity. If you’re an opportune for, and you’re only taking advantage of opportunity when it’s just laying out there, easy to pick up money off the ground. Sure. But that’s not what an investor does.

When I think of mortgage rates or interest rates, what I think of is one or two things, actually, it’s the cost of the money. It’s the cost. You might think of it as the cost of doing business, but it’s the cost to borrow that money to allow you to do the deal. So I think of it this way, if the cost of that mortgage money is, let’s say 3%, well that’s the cost of borrowing that money. If it’s 20%, it’s 20%. It doesn’t matter what it is. If at the end of the day the deal works, if the deal makes sense from an investment perspective, it has a cash on cash return and a return on investment, then it doesn’t matter what the cost is. If it, if the cost to borrow your funds is let’s say 3% and you’re making 6%, well you’re making a 3% net gain. If the cost of that mortgage loan is 20% and you’re making 30% total return and you’re making that extra 10%, well that’s an extra 10% net profit ahead of the game. So you gotta look at what are you getting out of it, not so much what is it costing you? Because that’s in a way being penny wise and pound foolish. Do you think I’m right or wrong in that way of looking at it?

A hundred percent agree with you. It’s a matter of what are you receiving on, I’ll take it even a step further. Depending upon how you go about the deal itself, sometimes the return is infinite ’cause how much of your money was actually in it. So if you take the time to see that, if you’re, if it’s a true arbitrage of just taking somebody else’s money, putting it to work and somebody else’s paying it back and you’re scraping a little bit off the top for you at the same time, then the return is infinite. Even though you’re promising to repay this guy over here, as long as you can keep somebody else paying him, you’re just making money on top of money. You know, when people talk about a cash on cash return, which was a great metric to really get people interested in real estate investing from the very beginning.

But what they failed to really look at is the amortization metric of having somebody else pay off the financing. You know, if you’re putting down their, your down payment plus your closing costs and then you have a third party, even if there’s no cash flow coming to you, just that third party occupying the real estate, paying back the loan, that itself is going to have a compound growth over that 30 years of paying off that mortgage, amortizing that loan against your initial investment. You could see an easy 10% when you’re putting 20% down. Plus if there’s 5% costs, you’re easy at 10% annual increase on your initial investment every single year just by having somebody else pay off the loan. And then securing a long-term instrument. I mean securing a an asset that is appreciating because of inflation, even only appreciating if you guys run the numbers yourselves and 80% loan to value, meaning you borrowed 80% of the value of that home and appreciated only at two and a half percent of the overall value annual, you are gonna see another double digit increase on your investment.

That’s when you start getting to the point of, was it you’re not using your money to compound the growth of your investment. Plus when it does get to a point of cash flowing, that’s just compounded and the compounded cherry on top of the sundae, if you will. So for me, it’s not a matter of what is the rates, it’s not a matter of what are the costs. It’s a matter of what’s the total package, what’s the cost of the money, what’s the cost of the asset, how much will that asset yield on a, on a monthly basis based upon somebody else using that asset? What’s that? What’s it gonna cost to maintain that asset? When you start putting all that together and looking at it as a business, when you see it as a business structure, cost of money and the rates really become very, very irrelevant. It’s just the number in the deal.

Yeah, I was talking to Kathy, who you obviously know very well, my operations manager yesterday about this subject for this episode. You know, the cost of money and, and whatnot. And the one thing we both agree on is, is that the rates are relative because she remembers the day when mortgage interest rates were above 18%. And you know, I had to look it up to get the exact month for my own knowledge. And it was October, 1981, we had mortgage rates of 18.6%. Think about that. We’re, you know, as you said, pushing 20%, 18.6% mortgage rate back then. And granted, you know, probably slowed down the real estate market, but people were still transacting real estate. That was the high, the low was January, 2021 at 2.65%. Incredibly low. I mean, that’s almost free money that’s below the rate of inflation. So that’s essentially free money, but that’s a wide range. But if you look at the long-term average, according to Freddie Mac, their data, and you go back to 1971 and you pull an average, you’re looking at just under 8%. So the fact that we’re in that, you know, seven and a half, 8% range right now, we’re actually around that long-term average. It’s not like this is abnormally high, it’s not even low, it’s just what it is. It’s a long-term average.

And also taking that long-term average, you’re talking about 7.79% is that average that that Freddie, I think 7.76 or 7.79 is what you’re gonna find with Freddie all the way back from 1971 till today. But if you take out quantitative easing from 2009 to the day, which is when the fed dumped in $8.9 trillion, the average interest rate was 9.1%. If you look@bankrate.com today, it’s 8.02 according to bankrate.com for a 30 year fixed mortgage for personally buying a house to live in. So we’re still below then that average when the market is what dictated interest rates. The market was based upon mortgage-backed securities, people investing into those pools, us borrowing closed pool, taking from those pools to lend to the public. But when you start taking the US treasury capital, filtering it through the Fed and then putting it into the market to bring those interest rates down, artificially even taking all that into account, the average interest rate from night from 2009 up until now is just under three. Just right around 3%. When you take that and factor that in all the way back to 2000 to to 1971. And we’re still, and nearly 8% with that included in it, it tells us guys, we’re still at an amazingly low interest rate when the market dictated the rates based upon the risk of putting money out there for people to use for housing. We’re still lower than that risk was ever created from 1971 and 2009. Yeah,

It’s, it’s all about putting things into perspective. Like we like to say everything’s relative and it is, I mean, when we were at 3%, that’s really low compared to the historic average of 8% or where we are today, around 8%. But if you compare that 8% to where rates were well over a decade ago, it’s a bargain. You know, it’s, it’s just funny. I remember when rates were going down from 11 to 10, 10 to nine people were saying, holy crap, we’re in the single digit now, you know, this is a great opportunity to refinance and get this lower rate of 9%. And you know, people thought they just got a steal of a deal, like it’s the deal of the century and it’s, and then it dropped to 8% and it’s like, okay, let’s refinance and we got a lower rate, a lower mortgage payment.

And you know, they’re thinking, yeah, this is great, you know, it’s all relative. I mean, when rates are high, are you comparing it to something that was higher or lower prior to that? And you know, you might feel good or bad about it, but it is what it is. It’s just the cost of money. You just have to adapt to it as long as the deal makes sense. This is kind of the way I look at it as, as long as the deal that you’re underwriting makes sense, it’s in a good market poised for growth and it’s in a good neighborhood where it’s got appeal and you’re gonna have a great tenant pool to draw from and the property pays for itself like it carries itself and your tenant is actually paying you and thereby paying off your mortgage, you know, it’s probably a good deal. So the cost of capital is just your ability to leverage your existing investment capital and put as little down as possible while allowing other people, other people as in OPM, other people’s money help you purchase the majority or the balance of that investment. So you put your down payment down, you borrow the rest. If the numbers pencil out, guess what? You’ve got an investment, you’ve got a deal. What am I missing there, Aaron?

I a hundred percent agree with what you were saying there. I look at it from a little bit more of a simpler perspective. You kind of outlined a part of a formula for people to use to determine what asset to buy or what business to buy. ’cause Each, I look at each property as its own business. I believe that what you are really searching for is something you can keep reasonably rented for the entire time you own it. You can raise rents on it and it will appreciate at least 2.5%. If I’m seeing that I’m happy with that deal, I’m very happy with that deal. But we also know that that’s even, those are, those are cut down numbers. It’s gonna be stronger than that. One of the things that I, I find a lot of solace in as far as making it strong in buying, and this is Aaron Chapman’s opinion, I believe that single family residences will be the most valuable real estate per square foot left on the planet.

Why? Because it’s being heavily targeted by the hedge funds. Your BlackRocks, your state streets, your vanguards are said, and I I don’t, this is just rumored that they would have the capability to control 60% of the available single family housing by 2030 or 2035. One of those, one of those dates. That’s significant. So I don’t see if that’s a target of theirs that anybody in our space that wants to get in and own that real estate is gonna get anything but improvement and that growth that we were just talking about. But you also have to be picky about where you buy it, right? There’s a lot of people that are so caught up in the cash on cash return metric, that was the easy sale point for the last few years that that’s all they focus on. But then you’re in a market where it’s a rougher tenant, it’s a rougher neighborhood, it’s a house that’s gonna take a lot of upkeep.

Any cash you made is gonna go back into keeping that house EE even occupiable because of the the factors you’re dealing with all those others. So it’s taking the time to understand what makes the most sense to you and what makes the most sense from a, from a long-term perspective. Not, not how much I’m gonna cash for the first year. It’s how you, how much you’re gonna cash flow and, and other things within that first five years. If you look back in history and you and I have listened to our mentors always say when you start a business, you need to have reserves for at least the first three to five years before you start to see cash flow. I don’t think real estate’s any different. We were given a gift for the last decade that you could walk in and get cash for the DA right outta the gate. I believe that it always has been, always should have been looked at as you are going to see a compounding cash flow growth, you know, for that 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 years. And that’s where your target needs to be. Not looking at what am I gonna cash flow the

First month. Yeah. I want to give a quick example. I’ve used the same example on a couple of previous episodes over the last, I don’t know, six weeks or so before I give the example, what would you say is a fair average annual rate of appreciation to use for this example? Is, is 5% too high, too low, or…

I think, I think five percent’s very, very, very fair. I’m still seeing people out there talking eight, nine. If you actually look at the case Shiller, CoreLogic and, and Black Knight came out just this year. They said that the national average is 8.9% in the US for appreciation. So five is extremely fair.

How far back did they go in taking that average?

That’s just 2023.

Okay, so 2020 and 2021 were abnormally high. 2022 came down. So that’s still a pretty healthy.

That’s smoking 8.9% with the highest spike in interest rates we’ve seen. Yeah, we’ve never seen interest rates go up that fast, that hard. And we still saw an 8.9% increase in property prices. That’s significant information for people to

Understand. Yeah, and, and that’s heavily being driven by the high demand and low supply that I keep talking about time and time again on this show. I keep going back to the fact that we have a pretty significant imbalance when it comes to the housing supply in the country. It’s just strong demand, not enough inventory. And those dynamics it’s just economics 1 0 1, it’s just pushing the prices up. It’s pushing rents up too. I mean, even still to this day, a lot of my properties are seeing rental increases. Not as much as it was two, three years ago, but we’re still seeing rent increases every single year. So it’s pretty strong. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. But let me share a quick example with you that I did. Well the last few episodes I took a $200,000 property where you’re putting your 20% down, 20% is $40,000. And I’m making the assumption that cashflow’s not very strong because interest rates are at 8% and I used 8% as this example.

So that’s giving you a net cashflow of only $200 a month. Doesn’t sound like much. It’s still positive cashflow. But for the sake of making this, you know, example, illustrative, we’re gonna say it’s $200 a month net cashflow and it’s a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. Again, 8% interest rate. We’re assuming an average 5% appreciation per year that could be higher, could be lower as we talked about. And a rent inflation of only 4%. So if you just look at this example in the first year, like just one year, your cash on cash return at $200 a month for 12 months is 6%. I mean, it’s not great, it’s not bad either. It’s $2,400 in, in cashflow for that first year. But here’s where it gets exciting, Aaron, if you look at the amortization of that loan, which is the lowest in its first year, your return is $1,337.

Let’s do the math on that. It’s 3.3%. You just take that equity gain divided by your down payment of $40,000. You’re 3.3% ahead of the game in an unrealized return in year one. And that only gets better from there. ’cause Each and every year that number’s higher and higher and higher because you’re amortizing more and more and more of the loan each and every year. So your equity return goes up every single year. So this is your worst case scenario is 3.3%. But you stack on top of that. The other side of the coin, the appreciation side. And if we’re talking 5% on a $200,000 home, well that’s $10,000, right? $10,000 divided into your down payment of $40,000 is a 25% rate of return. Again, unrealized return, but it’s still 25%. It’s $10,000 more in equity that you have at the end of the year than you didn’t have at the beginning of the year. And again, this is the worst case scenario. It, it only gets better from there. This is the worst you’re gonna do is in that first year.

That’s just year one. Guys understand that that’s just year one. When you start averaging these things over 30 years, it compounds bigger. I only look at two point a half percent on the appreciation when, when I do a number like that. And what I show with that is you’re looking at 13%, even at two point a half. So it’s just, it’s an amazing number when you start getting into the total package. Go don’t quick, just looking that narrow vision of cash on cash. Look at everything Marco’s talking about here and it becomes a significant investment. And people, for some reason, if money’s not hitting your bank account, you’re not feeling it. But it’s amazing how people will invest in the stock market. It’s like, oh, you know, it goes up and down and I’ll just see how it all, it’s, we’ve been conditioned and unfortunately the condition with the cash on cash has gotten people away from looking at the total package.

And that’s, I’m with you. We need to be championing this message to everybody that it’s, there’s a lot more dynamics to real estate investing. It’s way beyond cash flow because it’s these assets and these assets are gonna compound. They’re gonna get huge. And I am, I just closed on two properties in Missouri because I need to get my hands on as much investment real estate as I can, as quickly as I can for the sake of my fam. For not just me. It’s not about me. ’cause These aren’t gonna cashflow that much. It’s about the next two generations. Are they gonna have the opportunity we have today with what we know about the target on the real estate, on the single family residents and also the plan. And we all know this is a plan to create a subscription based economy. And when you’re a subscription based economy, you’re paying monthly for everything. Well, if you don’t own the real estate, you’re, you’re gonna be paying the subscription. If you own the real estate, you’ll be providing this subscription. We want to be able to do that for not just ourselves but the next generations to be able to carry on that, that legacy. Legacy is not money. Legacy is assets carry on those assets. And the education that we’re giving you today is the education you need to be given to your your heirs. So they have that to carry for you.

Yeah. Yeah. So you know, this, this is just exciting and it gets even more exciting as each and every year goes by with not just one property but all your properties. So, you know, when you step back, let’s go to the back to the topic title theme of this episode. And that is, are mortgage rate’s too high? Well, the example that we just talked about, Aaron, is an example based on an 8% mortgage rate, right? So if you buy this $200,000 investment property and you’re getting whatever, 1600 a month, 1700 a month in gross rent, paying your expenses, you’re paying your mortgage, your debt service, which is $1,467 a month based on an 8% rate, well, you know what’s left over is your, is your cashflow. Let’s just say you have zero cashflow, okay? Let’s just say you don’t have any cashflow for the first few years because your rent isn’t high enough to cover the payment.

But let’s remember you’re locking into a 30 year fixed rate mortgage, which means that every month and every year your mortgage payment is 1,467. What happens in like 3, 4, 5 years from now when your rent has gone up a few hundred dollars? Well now you are heavier into your positive cash flow, right? Your rents will go up over time because of rent inflation. But your mortgage payment, guess what? It doesn’t go up. It’s gonna be the same today as it is in 10 years from now as it is in 15 years from now. As it will be when you pay off that last mortgage payment 30 years from now, it’s gonna be $1,467. But guess what? Because of inflation that $1,467 30 years from now, when you pay off that mortgage, it’s gonna be the cost of a Starbucks latte <laugh> or something.

Very much. In fact, I’ve got a calculator that I’ll calculate that for you. If you go to the app store, you can literally go get my app that calculates the time value of money in your mortgage. When you calculate what your mortgage payment is, you can fast forward all the way to 2000 53 and see that you actually paid less than what you borrowed. In most cases, depending upon where that rate lies or within, within range of what you borrowed, even though you paid all its interest, inflation eroded the dollar for you. ’cause We have continued to see inflation every single year. And one way to really illustrate inflation and to tell people wrap their head around this, Marco is in the 1920s and before they would mint, a $20 gold piece is a one ounce gold piece. You could walk into the department store and get a hat, a suit, a tie, a shirt, a belt, a pair of socks, and a pair of shoes for that $20 gold piece.

You walk into a department store today, you can’t even get the socks for 20 bucks. But you can get all that stuff for an ounce of gold. Why? ’cause an ounce of gold is $2,000. It’s not that gold has gone up in value. It’s not that the cost of the suits and the hats and all the other crap has gone up in value. It’s the instrument that we are trading for that which is the US dollar has declined that much in value. So as I’m in, as you are showing here the the price of everything’s gonna go up, inflation, you’re talking about the, the value of the home, the rents, your cash flows, even just looking at that cashflow, the compound you mentioned $200 a month in, in cashflow, but you’re gonna raise rent. You said 4%. What was the gross rent? We were going off of this 200,000 house. Was it 118 hundred bucks? What

Was it? I have to look it up. I think it was around 1700 bucks or something like that.

So 1700. So if we’re at 1700 bucks, we’ll just do the quick math here. $1,700 and you’re at a 4% increase. That’s 68 bucks. Well that’s 68 bucks now is what? 34% increase on your cashflow. You went from 200 to 268. Your cashflow’s increasing double digits. Guys, think about that double digit compound increase on your cash flows every time you raise the rents by single digits. It’s the long game. You gotta look at the long game. Quit getting so tunnel visioned that you think the interest rates is going to going to crash everything. The other thing is, I really warn everybody is quit trying to time the market. They think, well everybody says the rates gonna come down. I don’t know that they are now Warren Buffet himself and we all will listen to Warren Buffett says the 30 are fixed is the greatest financial instrument in history.

‘Cause It’s a one-way bet. If the rates go down, you just refinance. But if they don’t and they keep going up, which I believe they could for, for a con extended period of time, you’ve protected yourself from a potential financial devastation that some people will get hit with if they do the arm. What’s also interesting, CNBC recently I’ve heard them I was watching is they were have very low inventory, presently low inventory and they say their best shot at inventory in the near future is when the arm rates start to come due. When the short-term loans start to start to transition to, to their long-term loans. They said we could start seeing those foreclosures, people not being able to afford those houses and inventory come back on the market. So you wanna debate that. I’ll debate it all day long.

So, you know, we could go on and on about this, but from where I sit to answer that big question, I’ll, I’ll tell you what my answer is. If you’re asking me or asking somebody, well, especially me, whether mortgage rates are too high right now, my short answer would be no. Could it be lower? Sure. Would I like them lower? Yes. Can they be higher? Yes, they can be. Would it affect my decision to invest? No, it wouldn’t because it all comes down to the deal. I wanna look at the numbers and see if the numbers make sense. Does it pencil out? Does it make financial sense when I look at the investment holistically, does it make sense to me to achieve whatever my financial goals are? If I have to pay a 9% mortgage rate to acquire a property that I know is gonna be a good long-term investment and I stand to gain through the amortization and the appreciation and I will be getting positive cash flow in the years to come, even if I have to wait, let’s say four or five years from now, if I like everything about it and they, it checks all the boxes for me, I’ll be willing to pull the trigger on a deal if the deal makes sense, again, holistically.

So whatever is considered too high, and I say too high in air quotes, is really a personal decision and a financial decision. You’ve got to just look at all the factors and the unique circumstances of that deal. So when you underwrite it, you gotta underwrite it based on the current market conditions. And when I say market conditions, that includes the current interest rate, whatever that mortgage rate is because it will change all the time. It fluctuates, it goes up, it goes down. We’ve had highs of 18.6% back in 1981. We’ve had a two point whatever it was, you know, 2.67, 2.65% in January of 2021. So, you know, these things are gonna continually change. And so what, you know what, if you have a great deal in, in your hand today and you lock it in at 8% as a mortgage rate and in three years from now rates come down to let’s say five, 5.5%, what do you do?

You just refinance it. You get the lower rate, you know, you can adjust. So, but at least you didn’t lose out on that deal today and be able to ride the equity train for the next three, four years until you refinance it at cheaper money down the road. And maybe, maybe what you do is you refinance it at a lower rate and pull some money out and take that money that you pulled out and I’ll say it’s tax free. You pull that money out tax free, use that as your down payment to buy another property. Meanwhile, you still have the first property, you’ve refinanced it for a lower rate and now you have a, a good deal turned better, plus you have extra money because of the equity gains that you could use to put towards another investment property. So this just compounds itself in terms of what you can achieve and gain. And so this is why it’s important to be not be myopic and shortsighted on it. You want to look at the long term and the medium term and what you could potentially turn this into. So anyway, I feel like I’m on a soapbox, you know, and just preaching, but essentially that’s how I view it.

A sermon like this is needed now and again, <laugh> ’cause of what’s going on in the world. So you know, pastor Marco is who will definitely lead you. And you get in that points another point. It’s you gotta be talking to the right people. So you we’re, we’re in an environment where, especially the lending environment, it is back to the levels of 1996. I got 1997 as far as the vol, the volume of transactions getting done, the average person in my space is doing between zero and one transactions per month. I’m still doing, you know, 50 plus a month very, by the grace of God, are we still that busy and taking on a hundred new applications a month? It’s very, very awesome to see that kind of volume going on in my world. Could it be more, yes, I’d love more, but you know, we’re at least able to to to do that much.

But what I what the point that I’m getting at is that when you’re talking to people in this space that you could be 100% of their income that month, they’re gonna do everything. They’ve got to talk to you into something that you may not need to be or should you should not be doing. It’s possible, you know? But if you’re dealing with ourselves, not, and again, I’m not, not saying that you’re not very important. Every single deal’s important to us, but you’re one 50th of my income in that scenario. So we talk to everybody, I talk to everybody. When you have a situation you really are not sure of and it may not work, we’re gonna have a real conversation about that because I absolutely need you to be successful in the business. It’s not about that one deal for me, it’s about deal number 10.

Because if I got you to number 10, to me you are a successful as a real estate investor, I’m successful as a lender ’cause I help you get to 10, I’m not successful ’cause I did one and you, and you lost and got hurt. It’s, I’m successful. ’cause We got you to 10 Marco’s successful, he got you to 10, 20, 30. That’s what makes us successful. So getting yourself, surrounding yourself with the correct people, that understanding these principles, tactics, and strategies, strategies will change with time. Principles will always stay the same. You if they don’t understand these principles and they’re giving you just whatever thought process they can to get you to just close on a deal, regardless of what that deal is, you’re, you’re, you’re putting yourself at risk. You’ve gotta be careful who your team is. You’ve gotta get the right team and I can, I will scream long and loud. Mark on his team are some of the best in the industry.

Aaron, I really appreciate that. Do you want to wrap this up? I think we covered what we wanted to cover and achieve the goal we wanted to achieve.

A hundred percent, I appreciate the time guys. Just text me. I’m gonna put this out there. I don’t even give a crap. Text me in my personal cell phone. (602) 291-3357. Again, 6 0 2 2 9 1 3 3 5 7. Text me if you need more details, how to be, how to get through some of these things. I’ll have my assistant Brie set us up on a call I’m that passionate about, and I know that’s a, a word that everybody used about making sure you’re successful. I gave you my personal cell phone. I need you guys to be successful with this. We’ve got to change the trajectory of what’s happening out there with what, with the large behemoth trying to take all that real estate away from us and from your future, your children’s future.

Aaron, appreciate you coming on the show. Always. great chatting with you. So thanks again.

Thanks buddy.

I hope you enjoyed this week’s throwback Thursday episode. If you haven’t already, remember to subscribe so you don’t miss out on a single episode. If you have a question about real estate investing or finance, simply go to passiverealestateinvesting.com and click the Ask Marco button. . I read all of them, I reply to many of them, and sometimes I cover them on the show, and I’m gonna try and do more of that. So, I am going to encourage you to go to passiverealestateinvesting.com and submit your question for Ask Marco.  Lastly, help us share the show with other like-minded people that you know who can benefit from it as well. Just visit us on your platform. Most of you are on iTunes and leave us a rating and review. I would greatly appreciate it. I read them all and I will thank you in advance. And that is it for today. Thanks for listening. I will see you on our next episode.

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