How to Connect with Anyone (with Charles Duhigg)

Well, it is my honor to welcome Charles Duhigg to the show for a second time. Actually. He’s a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and the author of The Power of Habit, which spent over three years as a bestseller and has been translated into 40 different languages. He’s also the author of Smarter, faster, better, another bestseller. And his most recent book, super Communicators, which was published this year. Charles writes for the New Yorker magazine, is graduate of Yale and Harvard. He’s a frequent contributor, CNBC | PBS NewsHour Frontline. He’s, you know, he is just all over the place. And just a very smart guy with some really, really good books that are very, very interesting. So, Charles, welcome back to the show. Thanks

Thank for having me on again.

Well, it’s an honor to have you back, <laugh>. I couldn’t stop talking about our last topic, you know, the, the power of habit and whatnot. But this year you released a new book titled Super Communicator. Is it Super Communicators or Communicator?

It’s super communicators, plural.

Super communicators. Interesting. Tell me what the book is about. It’s, it’s kind of a title where you read it and you don’t really think about what it is until you start getting into the book. Yeah. So what is the book all about?

It’s, it’s about the science of conversation and connection, right? It’s about how we have conversations that are successful and how we connect with other people. Because connecting with other people is both very, very important, but also sometimes challenging to achieve.

So let’s talk about communication. Is communication in your eyes considered a superpower?

Yeah, no, it absolutely is. I mean, if you think about communication for homo sapiens, our species, yeah, it is the superpower, right? Communication is the thing that’s allowed our species to do so well compared to every other, everything else on Earth. It’s allowed us to build families and villages and towns. It means that you can, you can learn some piece of knowledge through some hard experience, and you can share that knowledge with someone else who doesn’t have to go through the hard experience themself. Communication is our superpower, and our brains have evolved to be very, very good at communication. But what it also means is that in a business setting, in contemporary life, the people who end up succeeding are oftentimes the one who can communicate best. Yeah. Because when I know how to connect with other people, it gives me a tremendous advantage, right?

It means that they’re gonna trust me more, that we can have a more open dialogue, we can get to know each other better. You know, if you’re, if you’re trying to sell a building or buy a building, there’s so much that you have to take on faith, right? And it comes down to do I believe I can trust this other person? And the way that we establish trust, mm-hmm. <Affirmative> is through communication, oftentimes through conversation. And there’s a real science behind how conversation works that really in the last decade, for the first time, we’re beginning to understand.

Yeah, I learned this fortunately decades ago, just being a, an entrepreneur and having to deal with people on the phone, in person, even in texting, I found that I can communicate my message better and clearer when I am a better communicator and I can build trust and confidence and I can build that rapport. And, you know, people make judgements based on how you speak. You know, are how, how well you communicate are you articulate, you know, even your grammar and how you format an email is something that I use to judge another person and how well a communicator they are. You know, call me judgmental. But I really look at all that kind of stuff. So for me, it’s something that I think is really important. You talk about three different types of conversation. Can you break those down? ’cause I think, yeah, I didn’t even think about communication this way before, but you talk about the different types of conversations.

Yeah. So it’s, this is one of the big things that, that we’ve learned in the last decade. And, and to give you an example, you know, I started writing this book in part because I would come home from work and I’m a journalist, I’m a professional communicator theoretically. But I would come home from work and after a long day, and I would start complaining to my wife about my day and my coworkers and my boss, <laugh>. And she would respond with this pretty good advice, right? She would say like, why don’t you just take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other a little bit better? And instead of being able to hear her good advice, I would get even more upset, right? I would say like, why aren’t you supporting me? You’re supposed to be on my side.

You’re supposed to be outraged on my behalf. She would get upset ’cause I was attacking her for giving me good advice. This is something that I’m sure everyone listening, they’ve had this same dynamic in their own relationship, right? And so I went to researchers and I said, what’s happening here? Like, why does this happen again and again, why is it such a cliche in marriages? And they said, well, here’s what we’ve learned recently. We tend to think of a discussion as being about one thing, right? We’re talking about our day, or we’re talking about, you know, the kids’ grades or where we go on vacation. But actually every discussion is made up of multiple kinds of conversations. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and in general, those kinds of conversations, they tend to fall into one of three buckets. There’s these practical conversations where we’re talking about plans or solving problems or making decisions together, but then there’s emotional conversations where I might tell you what I’m feeling and I don’t want you to solve my feelings.

I want you to empathize. And then there’s social conversations, which is about how we relate to each other and society and the social identities that are important to us. And they said, what we’ve learned is that if you’re having a different kind of conversation at the same moment than the person you’re talking to, it’s very hard to connect with them. It’s very hard to hear them. Right? That’s what was going on with me and my wife. I was having an emotional conversation. My wife was having a practical conversation. Both of those are legitimate forms of communication, but because we weren’t having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, we weren’t really hearing each other. We weren’t connecting with each other. Right. And within psychology and neurology, this has become known as the matching principle that successful communication requires having the same kind of conversation at the same moment. And a lot of super communicators is about how to do that.

Yeah. That’s interesting as you’re saying that. ’cause I’m thinking two people can be communicating, but really not connecting. Is that a fair statement?

Yeah. I mean, I’m not sure how much communication is actually happening if they’re not connecting. Yeah. I mean, we’ve all had that experience where, where we say our thing and the person we’re talking to says their thing, and it just sort of feels like two monologues. Right? We’re not really talking to each other. Right. It’s like two ships passing in the night. I mean, it looks like we’re communicating, but I’m not certain that we actually are Connection and communication go hand in hand.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting. And, and now you’re making me think about the dynamic between men and women. You know, the differences between those two types of humans and how, you know, women, I hope nobody hates me for saying stuff like this, but, you know, leans more towards the emotional type of conversation and communication.

So the science says that that’s not true. I mean, I’ll tell you what the science says. Yeah. Okay. So men and women essentially communicate, have, have the same instinct to communicate equally. What is different is the communication habits that oftentimes we grow up with, right? So oftentimes for men in American society at least, and it’s different in different countries, there is an inculcation, there’s a, a kind of cultural training to have very practical conversations. And for women, oftentimes when they’re growing up, there’s a cultural tradition, norms around that, that encourage them to have more emotional conversations. And so as a result, you see two groups, and this isn’t universal, but in general, you see two groups that oftentimes have slightly different communication habits that make one kind of conversation more comfortable than the other. Oh, that does not mean that women are more emotional than men, or that men are more practical than women. It’s rather just a cultural artifact that kind of comes from how we’re raised. The same way that if you grow up, say, in Japan, there’s some questions that we can ask in America that would be considered very rude. And there’s some questions that they could ask in Japan that in America would be considered rude.

Right?

It doesn’t mean that the Japanese have a different sense of morality than the Americans do, but it does mean that there are cultural norms, and that oftentimes we’re trained by those norms into certain habits.

Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I didn’t think about it culturally, but then yeah, that’s, that’s a good point. So then why are some people better able to make themselves heard, if, you know, if that’s really the right way to ask this type of question. It seems that some people are always heard and heard, well, maybe they’re better communicators. What are they doing different? Like, I don’t understand why some people are better able to, to have themselves heard in any communication with people.

Well, it, my guess is that the, for those folks, they’re actually not being focused as much on being heard as hearing others. Right? So, one of the things that we know about super communicators, and we’re all super communicators at one time or another, but people who can do this consistently, people who can connect with almost anyone. One of the things that we know about them is they tend to ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. Wow. Right? They are asking a lot of questions, and oftentimes they’re asking a specific kind of question known as a deep question. And a deep question is something that asks us about our values or beliefs or experiences. And that can sound a little intimidating, right? But, but it’s actually as simple as if you meet someone who’s a doctor, instead of saying, you know, what hospital do you practice at?

Right? Asking a question like, you know, what made you decide to go to medical school? What do you like about being a doctor? When we ask that question, when we ask people not about the facts of their life, but how they feel about their life, what we’re really doing is we’re inviting them to say something honest and authentic and meaningful to us. And if we respond to something meaningful in return, that’s how we start to connect with each other. And so, in that case, a person is not thinking to of themselves, oh, I really want to be heard about what kind of doctor I am. Rather what they’re thinking about is, how do I connect with this person so that they understand that I want to listen to them, because that will make them more likely to listen to me. So I think if your focus is on getting heard, it’s probably counterproductive than thinking on with your purpose being, I want us to understand each other, which is a two-way street.

So what you’re talking about is not necessarily asking questions on a fact finding mission. You’re not fishing for just facts and information and data. You’re digging deeper and getting a better understanding of the person’s thoughts, values, their feelings, and whatnot. Like you’re forcing them to dig deeper into themselves.

Yeah. And you can ask about facts, right? Sometimes it’s important to learn facts, like, well, sure, I can’t ask you what you like about your neighborhood unless I ask where do you live? But if my next question is, oh, Bernal Heights. Yeah. What do you like about Bernal Heights? What made you decide, decide to move up there? That’s a deeper question. Yeah. That invites you to say something meaningful. And it’s important to note that it invites you rather than mandates you. Right? You could say, oh, it’s a good, it’s an easy commute. Okay. we, you don’t wanna necessarily talk about, there’s not a lot of like meaningful conversation around your, your neighborhood. Yeah. But you could also say, oh, I moved up there because like, you know, the community’s amazing. I have two kids and they go to school around there, and there’s a bunch of other parents that live nearby. And it’s so nice to, to be around other parents. That’s really interesting. Right Now I’m starting to learn things about you. A you have kids, right? But b, you’re someone who values community. You value your neighbors. That’s something that’s important to you.

Yeah. So, as a super communicator, how important is the hearing and listening part of it versus the talking, communicating, articulating part of it? ’cause Obviously communication to me at least is, involves listening as well as talking or communicating information.

I mean, they’re both obviously very important. Sure. Right. Because a dialogue is a two-way street. I would say that in general, if we don’t believe that somebody is interested in listening to us, yeah. We tend not to listen to them <laugh>. So one of the things that we know is that one, one of the reasons why asking deep questions is powerful is because not only does it invite someone to say something authentic, but then it presents us with an opportunity to engage in reciprocal authenticity. Right? If I ask you what made you decide to become a doctor? And you say, oh, you know, when I was a kid, my dad got sick, and I just saw how the hospital took care of him. It’s very natural at that point for me to answer my own question and say, oh, that’s interesting. I became a lawyer because I saw my uncle get arrested as a kid.

Right? Now we’re sharing something meaningful about both of ourselves. We’re engaging in this reciprocity. And, and not only am I showing you that I’m listening to you, but I’m also matching you, you’re, you brought up something that’s a little bit emotional about your dad, and I brought up something that’s emotional about my uncle that gives us a chance to both have a, to get aligned and to have a similar kind of conversation. And from there we might move to a practical discussion or a social discussion, but we’re moving together. And so it’s not like there’s a formula, like you should listen twice as much as you speak or something like that. What’s much more important is to have the right goal going into the conversation. And the goal in the conversation is not to convince you that I’m smart or that I’m right, or that you’re wrong, or that you should like me. The goal in a conversation is to understand how you see the world and to speak in such a way that you can understand me. We might walk away disagreeing with each other or not liking each other, but if we both understand each other, then we’ve probably had a real conversation and we probably feel some sense of connection.

Hmm. Interesting. Okay. So in that case, what are the mistakes that people make or maybe call ’em common mistakes that people make in talking with each other or trying to communicate with each other? I mean, obviously people fail at being a super communicator probably all the time.

Well, actually, I mean, what’s amazing is how good we are at communication, right? Okay. Like, if you think about it, you’re probably gonna talk to what, five or 10 people today? Yep. Some of them you haven’t met before, and you probably won’t have a huge miscommunication issues, right? You won’t get into any fights with anyone, right? So we’re actually really good at communication. But super communicators, not only are they good at communication, they’re good at connecting with people. And so some of the things that people fail to do is they don’t ask enough questions, they don’t ask the right kinds of questions. But another big mistake, particularly in conflict conversations, when we have some tension with someone, when we’re disagreeing about something, when there’s a, a topic under discussion that there’s just a lot of tension around is people oftentimes don’t show each other that they’re listening. So there’s this instinct in all of our heads when we’re in a conflict conversation at the back of our skull, we’re kind of wondering, is the other person actually listening to me or are they just waiting their turn to speak?

Right. <laugh>, right.

That’s the true. So the question is how do we overcome that? And the way that we do that is by proving that we’re listening to someone. And there’s actually a technique for this in tough conversations that they teach at Harvard and Stanford, a bunch of other places. It’s called Looping for Understanding. And it has three steps. The first step is you should ask a question, preferably a deep question. The second step is you should repeat back what that person told you in your own words, prove to them that you are paying attention. And most importantly, prove to them you’re processing this, you’re trying to make sense of it. It’s not just mimicry, it’s actually matching. It’s trying to, to show them that you understand. And then step three, and this is the one people always forget, ask if you got it right, because one of two things will happen.

Either they’ll say, no, no, no, I don’t think you totally understood me, which is great. ’cause Now I, my understanding gets, gets better. Or number two, they’ll say, yeah, I think you heard me. And what’s happening when they say, yeah, I think you heard me, is that they are giving us permission to acknowledge that we were listening to them. And one of the things we know about our psychology, and this is hardwired into our brains, is that when we believe someone is listening closely to us, we tend to become more likely to listen to them. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. And so what I would say is that the, the big mistake that people often make, in addition to not matching each the kind of conversation that’s happening and not asking enough questions, is in a tough conversation. They oftentimes don’t prove that they’re listening and proving that you’re listening can transform that dialogue.

So what I hear you say is you should summarize or repeat back what you <laugh> what you’re hearing the person say and confirming that you understood. Correct. Yeah. Correct.

Except that to really do that, you need to add something from yourself, right? Like, like just, just echoing back what I said. Yeah. That doesn’t necessarily prove that you’re listening, but if you said, if you said, what I hear you saying is that we should listen to what someone’s saying. Yeah. And, and then we should try and like really think about it and see what we want, want to add to it, what we can contribute, then that would prove to me that you were listening and processing what I was talking about.

Yeah. Well, I think you caught that. I was just trying to do what you were just saying, <laugh>. Yeah. Which it’s a great thing to do. It’s a great skill, I guess. I mean, listening, I’ve heard many times people say that listening is, is a skill that you can develop. I, I don’t know if that’s true.

It absolutely is. Yeah. So, and, and this is when, you know, when I started writing super communicators, I assumed that super communicators, the people I’d be writing about, that they were all, you know, extroverts and really charming. And that’s actually not true at all. What that science tells us is that it’s just a normal distribution through society. Some super communicators are extroverts, some are introverts, some are charming, some are curmudgeonly. It’s not that super communication is like this inborn skill. It’s that we can, anyone can learn to become a super communicator. It’s just a set of skills that anyone can learn, like asking deep questions, looping for understanding, and undergirding all of them is this basic thing, which is, I’m trying to show you that I want to connect with you, that when I have a conversation where the message I’m sending you is I want us to connect, I want to understand you, and I want you to understand me. We, again, are, we are hardwired to, to appreciate that, right. And to, to actually feel good about it.

So you, you make me wonder about shy people, people who are like extreme introverts or, or shy. I mean, do they lack a skill or are they gonna have trouble being a super communicator.

Yeah, I mean, shy people no, some shy people are fantastic communicators. Right? And first of all, you don’t know that many adults who are shy, right? Like, there’s not that many people who actually are shy. Once, once you’ve sort of learned some social interactions, right? You might be an introvert, you might be more comfortable having a conversation, one-on-one than in a big group. You might prefer to like have a quiet dinner with a friend rather than go to a party. But no, in fact, if you talk to most super communicators, what they’ll tell you is that there was a stage in their life that they were bad at communication, right? They’ll say like, things like, in high school I had trouble making friends, so I had really had to study how kids talk to each other, or my parents got divorced and I had to be the peacemaker between them. This is not something that is based on our characteristics, right? It’s not based on our personalities. It’s like learning to read, right? It’s not that a shy person is worse at learning to read than a extrovert anyone can learn to read,

Right?

And you can also learn to be a super communicator the same way. It’s just a matter of identifying what the skills are that you need. And that’s what the book does, is it talks about those skills and then practicing them until they become habits.

Interesting. Well, let’s wrap with this question. Charles, you know, my audience is made up primarily of entrepreneurs and investors. So, you know, how can they apply super communication in their business and their investing?

I think it’s, it’s essential, right? I mean, as an entrepreneur and an investor myself, like, what are the things that matter? So if I’m doing, if I wanna work with someone, if I’m, there’s a certain amount of trust that goes into every single transaction, right? When I invest in someone’s fund, I get all the documents, I do all the due diligence. But at the end of the day, I gotta, I gotta do a gut check and figure out do I trust this person, right? Are they a Madoff or are they someone who’s being on upfront with me when I’m trying to buy a building and I know that there’s other people who are competing for that, or I’m trying to sell a building and I’m trying to figure out who to sell it to, that I think will actually come through and complete the deal and not like become a jerk as soon as we sign the contract.

I have to trust whether that person, I have to evaluate other people all the time. And the way that we evaluate other people is through conversation, right? That is the technique. That is the tool, the method that we have to try and figure out whether someone is trustworthy or not. To fi try and figure out whether someone is upfront and straightforward or not. And when we find someone who we do trust, that doesn’t mean that they’re our best friend, but we do feel a little bit of a connection with them, right? We, that sense of connection creates a sense of trust. It creates a sense of comfort. And so for entrepreneurs, for investors, your ability to connect with other people is the most important ingredient as to whether you are going to be successful or not. Because at the end of the day, we want to do business with people whom we trust, whom we like, and whom we think are being forthright with us. And the way that we accomplish all three of those, the way that we prove that we’re trustworthy, we prove that we’re likable, we prove that we’re forthright, is by having conversations and knowing how to have those conversations in a way that help us connect with each other.

Great summary, Charles, I appreciate you taking the time. The book is super communicators, how to unlock the Secret Language of Connection. Thank you for taking the time to come on the show today, Charles, it’s been an absolute pleasure.

Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Well, talk to you soon. Thank you.

Well, that’s our interview for today. I hope you enjoyed it. I had to run through it as Charles was a little short on time, but it’s a fascinating topic and hopefully you enjoyed it enough to pick up his book. Remember to download our report on our website at norarealestate.com. It’s our free report called The Ultimate Guide to Passive Real Estate Investing. It’s more of a primer than anything else. But if you are interested in real estate investing, expanding and growing your portfolio, or just getting started, just get your free strategy session with my team of investment counselors. You can do that on the website at noradarealestate.com. We’ll put that all in the show notes. If you have a question about real estate investing, you know, send that over. There’s a form to fill out on our website and I’ll be happy to respond or cover it on the show and remember to subscribe. That is it for today. Thank you for listening. We will see you all on our next episode.

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