How would you like to grow your wealth on a tax-deferred or tax-free basis? Host, Marco Santarelli, has the answer for you: self-directed IRA. This type of retirement account is designed to allow investors to diversify their portfolio, giving you the freedom to invest in different retirement assets and, consequently, the advantage to increase the potential for growth. In this episode, Marco extends to you this amazing tool that you can add in your investment toolkit. Together with Glen Mather, the president and CEO of NuView Trust Company, they dish out some valuable info that you’ll want to pay attention to so that you can recognize how you can start, grow, and leverage your retirement savings. Follow through in this great conversation to take control of your financial future, and tax-free at that!
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How To Build Tax-Free Wealth Using A Self-Directed IRA (Part One)
How would you like to grow your wealth in a tax-deferred or tax-free basis? You can with a self-directed retirement account. These are also known as self-directed IRAs. A self-directed IRA is a form of individual retirement account that is designed to allow investors to diversify their retirement assets, including cash beyond what is typically offered by many brokerage firms. The advantage of that is, you can increase the potential for growth by giving you the freedom to invest in almost any type of asset, it gives you the ability to diversify your portfolio by investing in alternative assets such as real estate and precious metals. It can hedge against market fluctuations and volatility.
As a side note, I’d like to say that the stock market and equities market are the alternative investments and that real estate being a hard asset is the true and best investment. Thirdly, it allows you to take control of your financial future because these are self-directed retirement accounts. Lastly, you can grow your savings in a tax advantage account that allows for tax deferral and/or tax-free growth. This episode is filled with valuable info. You’ll want to pay attention and recognize how you can start, grow, and leverage your retirement savings.
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It is my pleasure to welcome Glen Mather to the show. He is the President and CEO of NuView Trust Company. He speaks nationally on the topic of self-directed investment retirement accounts and has been featured in print and on television. It was due to Glen’s passion for self-direction that NuView was opened in August of 2003. He founded the company to broadly open up the opportunity for others to participate in taking control of their IRA and the investment opportunities available to them to put into those retirement accounts. Over the course of the last several years, he has gathered a great management team that shares his enthusiasm for providing others access to the full opportunities within their retirement account. He is also a great acquaintance of mine. We’ve been on a couple of cruises together. Glen, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Marco. I’ve got that a bit. All the other stuff is true but we started NuView with the idea that was basically mine because I was self-directing my IRA with a local bank in Chicago. It took all sorts of maturations to get into the bank and allow me. I wasn’t a high-net-worth individual. I didn’t have this access available to me. When I learned I could buy real estate in my IRA, I quickly exhausted all of the hurdles. I got over all the hurdles to make it happen and that was my basis. I was doing this myself. I wanted all of my friends, associates, and people I haven’t met yet to go do the same thing because it’s amazing and powerful.
You found this passion through your own personal experience?
Yes, I did.
Tell us a little bit about NuView and a little bit more about yourself. I’ve spent a few weeks with you over a couple of years out at sea and I have gotten to know more about your company, you and your services, and whatnot. It’s a very sharp company. Expand on that a little bit for the audience and are not familiar with you.
I started this company when I was 47 years old because I was concerned about my own retirement and what it was going to look like. I started out working at a little company out in the West Coast called Lockheed Missiles and Space Company. Perhaps some of you have heard about it. It’s called Lockheed Martin now. I started out like many of you. I joined their 401(k) plan only five years after the first 401(k) plan was created back in 1980. I didn’t know what I was doing, like many of us. I put 2% of my money in and I said, “Here’s my deal with myself.” This is a great way to start saving if you haven’t started yet.
The deal is it’s always easy to make a commitment to save in the future than it is to save now. I say every time I got a pay raise, “50% of it would go in my 401(k), 50% would go in my fund budget or whatever.” I did that for several years. I left Lockheed in 1993 and I had over $120,000 saved in my 401(k) plan. That’s a little tip of savings, make the pledge to do something in the future and you’re more likely to do it than to take a big commitment and make it all right now. I grew it all the way up until the time that I was retired. I was making 12%, 13% investments every year in it. What I didn’t like are the choices because I had to be in the stock market.
That’s the limitation and unfortunately, that’s what most people think is your only option. They don’t realize that you can take an IRA and turn it into a self-directed IRA, which by law is what everybody is allowed to do. Let’s talk about that. For people who are not familiar, what is a self-directed IRA? How does that differ from what most people think of as a traditional IRA? Let’s take it from there.
I’ll give you a quick little tutorial. There are four kinds of IRAs you can have. You can have a SEP, a Simple, a traditional and a Roth IRA. They’re all different types. They’re basically all pinch on one thing is the government is trying to give you a tax incentive to save for yourself. The real truth of the matter is, the more we save for ourselves, it takes the pressure off Social Security. We know what’s happening with that. Now, with all this new deficit spending, what are we going to do? That’s probably for another show. In any case, the government’s incented for you to take care of your own retirement.
Unfortunately, Wall Street has hijacked that thought and said, “In order to use your IRA, you must buy stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. We’ll let you stay in cash for a short period of time until we agitate you to go buy more stocks, bonds, and mutual funds.” That’s what everybody does. That’s how the industry does it. The 401(k) advisors that work inside Wall Street that help you when you’re an employee, they also want to help you when you’re an ex-employee. It’s all geared to that. As you point out, there are no rules that say that you’re not allowed to buy private investments with your IRA. It’s that most people have no idea how to do it and where to go to facilitate those types of arrangements because they’re not sold to you by Wall Street.
That’s why you need a custodian of sorts.
We serve as a custodian. Most people don’t know what that term is. Our company is called a trusted company. A trust company is someone that holds money that’s not theirs and does the bidding of the beneficiary of the trust. When you own an IRA, you are the beneficial owner of that IRA. It means that you direct whoever’s holding that money and you’re doing it right now through Charles Schwab and Merrill Lynch. You’re telling them you want to buy this stock or you want to buy this mutual fund. They go do it and they hold it in a special account.
We do the same thing that they do, but our menu is far bigger. I love this concept that one of my associates here at Lockheed has told me. He says, “The difference between a self-directed IRA and a traditional stock market IRA is this.” It’s like saying, “Could McDonald’s sell a ribeye steak if they wanted to?” The answer is yes, they could. They choose not to. It’s not their business model. The reason why McDonald’s wouldn’t sell that, it would take too long to get through the drive-through window. It would clog up everything because it’s all about fast food that’s barely edible, but t’s fast food. The fact of the matter is McDonald’s could do that if they chose to. It wasn’t their business model. It’s not how they’re priced. It’s not how they run.
The fact of the matter of Charles Schwab could allow people to buy real estate notes, mortgages, tax deeds, security instruments, and all the things you can do inside a self-directed IRA. They choose not to, not because it’s illegal for them to do so. They do because it would grind their program trading to a halt. Almost everything that’s done on those platforms has gone automated because there are no people involved. You’ll start to realize that when you make a call to those companies on how long it takes to get somebody knowledgeable and it’s a program. There’s nothing wrong with it. What they do is they sell what’s on their menu. They don’t sell what’s on the total menu. At NuView, we’re excited to let you know that as a custodian of ours, you get everything the IRS does not prohibit. There’s not a list of what you can do. There’s not a list of what can do, there is only a list of a few things that you’re not allowed to do.
Glen, that begs the next question, what is allowed? That leads to the next question of what is a prohibited transaction? Certain things like I believe art and collectibles are not allowed. What is allowed?
The beauty of what’s allowed is it’s almost everything that you’d be attracted to in the first place and what’s not allowed is you’ll get a sense of why it’s not allowed. Let’s start with that. I’ll give you a few things that are allowed after I tell you what’s not because what’s allowed is broad. What’s not allowed is the IRS does not let you do collectibles. The name about 6 or 7 different collectibles like wine, art artwork, special coins, and gems. All that stuff is off the table. Generally, for that is it has to do with valuation. The IRS once a year requires you to tell them how much your account is worth. If it’s all over the map and it’s hard to get an expert to tell you. This was back in 1975 when they wrote this code, they said, “We do not want to have collectibles.” There was no one to argue against that. Since 1975, you can’t own collectibles.
The only other single classification of the element you can’t own is life insurance, which makes perfect sense because your IRA is to take care of your living costs. It’s not your dying costs. It’s not to benefit your beneficiary. By the way, when you die and you have an IRA, your beneficiary gets it but you shouldn’t be investing it in something where they hit a home run, but you don’t. That’s the purpose. That’s one category of things you can’t do, collectibles and insurance. The other part has to do with the relationship between the parties. They’re concerned about insider trading inside deals. I’ll give you a simple one. What if my mother had a house and she was getting ready to go to assisted living? It’s a nice house. I love this house. It’s perfect for rentals.
I could split it up in the middle. I could put one party upstairs, one party downstairs. There are two entrances. It would generate all this cash for me. The IRS says, “I don’t think your mom’s going to give you a fair deal on that. It’s not fair.” When I get my IRA involved, there’s a tax benefit to that. I have the right as the government to say, “I’m going to take your mom off the table. You can’t do deals with her.” Your IRA cannot be in any deal with her. She can’t stay in one of the properties that you own in your IRA. It’s not an arm’s length transaction. That’s what they’re looking for. What they’ve basically done is certain people are called disqualified parties. Those are people that your IRA can’t deal with. It’s the family tree, but it’s the trunk of the tree, which is interesting.
They’re parents and grandparents, children and grandchildren, yourself and your spouse, and the spouses of your children and grandchildren. That’s very narrow. It doesn’t talk about brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, and aunts. I would tell you as a custodian, stay away from family. Don’t do deals with them because you don’t want anyone to doubt that you didn’t do anything but an arm’s length deal. The other aspect of this if you have a business interest. If you own a business, your IRA can’t be used to fund your own business. It makes sense. It’s not fair because you’d be using tax-deferred money to fund your business when other people wouldn’t be able to use tax-deferred money because they may not have an IRA. Understand that those are the categories. It’s family members generally. It’s businesses you own and then avoid collectibles and life insurance.
The opportunities and options are very broad. There are some limitations. Stay within that box and you’re fine. You mentioned funding your investment or your purchases a couple of times. Let’s talk about that. As far as I know, there’s three ways to fund an acquisition or purchase or an investment within your self-directed IRA. That is all cash coming out of that IRA. Partnering with somebody and then using financing, which contributes to whatever capital you have within the IRA to make that investment. Let’s talk about these three. Break it down for us so people have a clear idea of what they can and can’t do as far as funding and making those investments.
Let’s take the middle one first because everyone understands fully funding something means I have exactly or more in my IRA than I need to buy stuff in. That’s fairly easy. When we’re talking about real estate, that’s generally known as a fee simple title. It goes from the title. What’s interesting is when it’s owned in your IRA, it doesn’t go in the name of your IRA. It goes in the name of the custodian first. It would be NuView Trust FBO, which stands for, For the Benefit Of Glen Mather’s IRA. What’s cool about that is it lets everybody know that it’s not yours. You’re the beneficiary of it but as far as the day to day signatures and holding of it, it’s up to the custodian to do it. I don’t know, Marco, if you know this, but probably one of the best things possible about an IRA and also a 401(k), 403(b), 457 is those things are, have the highest-level asset protection of almost anything. Do you ever hear of a guy named OJ Simpson?
Yes, why?
He used to run some good Hertz commercials. You recall that he was let go on the murder conviction. He was considered got away but he did not get away on his civil conviction with the Goldman family. That was the family of the slain lady, whoever did it. He got a court order against everything that he owned. They got to haul away his grand piano and everything in his house. As you recall, he got in a little trouble with his memorabilia later on in life. The most important asset that he got to retain was this NFL pension. They couldn’t touch it. The courts said, “I don’t care what you’ve done, that’s going to be protected. The only way that it can be taken away from you is a fraud.” Interestingly enough, you could potentially murder somebody and keep what you have. That’s how strong that protection is and as long as you don’t commit fraud. Why would anyone not build their IRA up as big as they can, make that the rainy-day fund, and never use it and make it bigger and bigger? It comes with so much extra benefit. Not only is it tax-free as it builds, but it protects you against the worst thing possible, which would be everything’s gone, but you still have that.
Someone has an IRA. They’ve got funds in that IRA. They want to make an investment in some asset that generates cashflow or whatever it may be. The first is to make that acquisition all cash. They’ve got $100,000 in their IRA. They buy $100,000 rental property or whatever. The second way is to use financing. I’m going to let you comment on this because I’ve talked about this a lot in the past. How do you finance?
I’ll leave that. I apologize because I left off without going to the second one, which was for the partner. Let’s go to partnering and then lending last. Partnering is interesting. That’s pretty simple. What it allows you to do or what I love partnering is I do a lot of my deals in partnering. A lot of people hate the fact that they have to have a partner. I go, “I love the fact that I have a partner.” Look at what you do. Every time you’re doing your show, you educate people. After a while, you’re going to want to invest yourself. Let’s say it’s something brand new and structured settlement and that’s a lot of fun. What would be better than to you come up to me and say, “Glen, I’d love to learn about structured settlements. I believe they’re a good investment. How about if I take 50% of the next deal you do?”
That’s pretty cool because here’s the deal is you get to ride all my knowledge. You get it free. You’re getting 50% of the deal. Whatever the money is, I have to put in the same amount of money. There’s no hidden deal here. I put in the same amount of money. You could probably get away with telling me, “I’ll put 20% in, 25%.” You still get 100% of the education for 20% of the risk and you get 20% of the reward. Partnering, you can come to any different percentages that you like. People have told me that you can even partner with a spouse because I’m not buying from a spouse, she’s a disqualified party. As long as your IRA comes to the table with your money and your wife’s IRA comes with that money, then it can go on title. She owns 60% and I own 40% based on the money that’s brought in. It’s simple to process. It’s the money that comes in. There’s one exception to it that’s cool. It is about real estate generally. Do you want to hear that one?
Yes.
It’s called a joint venture. You’ve heard of joint ventures and you usually think of joint ventures as being big, pricey things when you build a freeway or you build a new building. It can be something as small as this. We all have different talents and we all have different monies in the bank. It’s not ever the same. It’s different for everybody. When you’re in real estate, a lot of times the person has the money doesn’t have the time, or they may not even have the smarts to use it. I’m going to use you as an example. Let’s say that you are a real estate hustler, Marco. You know the market and stuff. You don’t have the benefit of deep pockets or you’d like to do more deals and sooner or later we all run out of money.
I’m going to come to you, “Marco, I’m not good at anything that’s real estate. I’ve got money and I want that money to work well. Tell me what I can do.” You say, “That’s pretty cool. I know a property right now we can buy for $120,000. We can get it up to about $180,000. It needs about $15,000 worth of work.” I said, “I work in the business. I’m trying to build my company. I don’t want to know anything about it except show me the numbers and how it’s going to work out.” You create a joint venture agreement between my IRA and you. You don’t even have an IRA. It doesn’t matter.
What’s going to happen is I put the $120,000 down, you go purchase the house. The agreement will say you’ll fund all of the rehab work or whatever. Let’s say there’s a $30,000 payoff at the end, we split it 50/50. You can do that and calculate that any way you wish. My $120,000 is working because I expect to get all of that done within six months. We’ll even put in the joint venture agreement what happens if we don’t sell it? Do we lower it or do we start renting it out and make it a long-term hold? That’s up to us.
The power of money gets the deal funded, but yet my IRA can get the returns I want. You as someone that doesn’t even have an IRA, get to do another flip that you would not be able to deal with any other way. There are so many ways to do this. It shocks me and the thousands of clients we have. We have almost $1.5 billion of client assets. How few people do this? The power is in knowing it and then unlocking it, unleashing the power. It’s amazing. That’s the second way is partnering. You can partner right on the equity side where we said, and it can be 5 versus 95 or 50/50. It doesn’t matter. It’s where the money comes. The joint ventures have to be written up in advance.
You have the third type, which is borrowing. I don’t stress this too much because it only works for real estate. It doesn’t work for all the other things. You can do many different things in your IRA. A lot of times, we all run out of money. We look for someone that’s going to finance the deal. The first place you look to, you don’t look to banks or traditional places because the loan has to be non-recourse loan. That is about a loan that says if it goes bad that you can’t come after me personally. The reason why is you can’t come after my IRA like OJ Simpson’s IRA couldn’t be. You couldn’t come back and get mine, but you could get the property.
It’s property-based financing. You have the opportunity to get it from the seller because they want to get the deal done. We see that all the time. You also can use a third party to finance it and they get the mortgage on the property, the security interest in the property. In the market now, I’ve got to tell you, I’m very aware of what cash earns in the marketplace. Cash earns, if you go five years out, you’re going to give out about 1.7%. A five-year commitment of your money at 1.7%. People are frustrated with their IRAs. If they’re going to get an annuity, it gets paid even worse than that. Now, I can go out to them and if I’m doing flips or I’m even doing long-term holds.
If there’s enough money in this deal, I can promise you 5% secured by real estate. That sounds pretty good. I can leverage this up and do more and more of these deals. Understand there’s one other side note to this that if you leverage and you sell with leveraged debt, there’s an additional tax you’ll pay inside the IRA. It’s called Unrelated Debt-Financed Income. Before we also end this show, I also want to touch on briefly on a Solo 401(k), which is the coolest thing of all. UDFI doesn’t even affect a Solo 401(k). There’s an exemption for that. I have a lot to share with you and I need you to guide me because I’ll be taken off with all the excitement.
I’m going to bring up the topic of a Roth IRA. Maybe we can talk about the Solo 401(k) and the Roth IRA at the same time. We want to focus on how do I create and build wealth within my retirement account using self-directed retirement accounts. I had two thoughts. One, regarding your five-year return of 1.75% or whatever that was. I don’t think you’re adjusting for inflation on that because if you are, you should have a negative return. Regardless of what it is, whether it’s a negative return or 1%, the point is that cash sitting there in an inflationary environment is not producing anything for you. You’re losing money each and every year. You should put it to work.
That’s the beautiful thing about having a self-directed retirement account is you can put it into income-producing assets. The other comment I want to make, Glen, is a quick comment for the audience about financing. It is a little or maybe a lot tougher to get financing for a self-directed retirement account, but it does exist. It’s non-recourse financing. There’s a lender out there that will do it. This is an option for some people to set up a self-directed retirement account and then make their purchases using that nonrecourse financing, which may not be 80% loan-to-value. It may only be 50%, maybe 60%, but it does exist. I don’t want people to think that it’s not an option or a possibility.
If you were to come to me and say, “I’ve got a 50% down equity slug and you get to repossess the property, should my IRA not pay?” I’d take that all day long. The benefit of that is you have two properties that you’re getting the uplift on price rise. You’re getting the uplift on rental income. It has to do with multiplication. Everybody’s comfort level is a little different on that. I don’t want to suggest this to everybody.
It’s a matter of conversation and weighing out the pros and cons to see what makes the most sense for you. With the partnering thing, that’s probably a good segue to another question I have for you and that is how is income and expenses handled within the self-directed IRA? Not only does it need to be at arm’s length, but it has to be completely separated from you, meaning that you cannot participate in putting monies in or taking monies out. Rental income that comes in that cashflow has to stay within that retirement account. There has to be absolutely complete separation. How do you handle that with your self-directed IRA and also how do you handle that when you have a partnership?
I like to talk about practical solutions rather than simple or ones that don’t work. One of our three uniques in our company is to make it simple. I know that everything irritates me when it gets too complicated. First, I feel dumb, and second of all, I don’t get the job done. I do get a chance to feel dumb every day.
How do you as a self-directed IRA owner handle income and expenses? You’ve got to keep cashflows and capital expenditures completely separated.
Here’s a practical way. If it was you and I, it’s pretty easy. If we have a tax bill, for example, I’m going to notify you. NuView would notify you that you have a $3,000 tax bill and your portion of it, you own 50% is $1,500. With taxes, it’s pretty easy because we asked for an upfront authorization to always pay your property taxes. You can tell us not to, but I’m not having to wait for you to do that because you’d lose your property. Where it gets complicated is now the third person and the fourth person come in. The reason that it gets complicated, first of all, is, generally speaking, someone’s not going to want to be in that investment all the way until the time it’s liquidated.
Someone’s going to want to come in and come out. You’re going to form an LLC. The structure would form an LLC and then the IRAs would fund the LLC. Your IRA would own 25% of Sunshine State LLC and mine would own 75%. The beauty of that is you can sell your 25% to a third party. They step in your place. You’re no longer in that deal. And I don’t have to retitle the property and pay all the taxes necessary and the lawyers to retitle the property, it’s still in the same. The only thing that’s change is your ownership name on that 25%. As a practical matter, someone is named as the manager of the LLC. We would not be the manager. It would be one of the investors. They would have to act as the manager. They’ve got to keep the right records and all of that, but that is allowed inside a self-directed IRA.
This might be an extreme example. This is a thing that I think about from time to time. Someone who has invested as much as they possibly can from their self-directed IRA into assets and real estate. Now all of a sudden, there’s a major repair that comes up that was unplanned for like a roof replacement. There’s a capital expenditure cost and they don’t have enough funds in the retirement account to pay for those repairs. They can’t pay for it themselves. How do you handle a situation like that?
It’s not how I handle it. It’s how do they handle it. I don’t want to take on the obligation of fixing that for them. Part of that is thinking about that before the hurricane comes. I’m in Florida. I do remember the hurricanes that have come through here. I wasn’t barely moved in and Charley hit us. Another one, I forget all the names. I remember going up on a flight and looking down over Orlando and about two-thirds of the roof was blue. I’ve never seen so many blue roofs because it was tarps over the top of them. Those things can happen. You need to be insured for it. That would be good to have some insurance against most of the pestilence that might come your way. The other part is to make sure there’s enough cash left that you’re not draining all of your cash or you have the opportunity to make a future contribution.
There are ways to deal with this. Number one is have you contributed all your money towards your IRA? If you haven’t, make the contribution, then use that money to add to it. By the way, as a practical matter, you could also get debt on it. You could find based on the equity value of it, you could go do a third party to buy it. You could go get a third party to put the debt on it. Your IRA is going to owe that, but you’ll have the new roof on and you’ll take care of it. The third way is to sell a piece of it. You’ll sell me a third of it. The title will be changed because I’m not a relative. I don’t do deals with any of my clients so understand I’m using myself as an example. You can find somebody else that will take over enough interest to give you enough money. Maybe you sell 5% of the property. There are ways you can do this. It’s better to think about this in advance.
I know it’s an extreme example, but I bring it up because I’m thinking for that person who’s got $100,000 in their retirement account and they’re using $100,000 or $95,000 of it to put towards an investment, a purchase. What happens if they’re cut short?
I go through life and hopefully I’m a good enough friend that people trust me. My clients all trust me with a lot of money, but I like to have financial friends. It’s smart if you’re in any business of any investment, whether you’re inside an IRA or not. When you see a good deal, it’s a buddy that you can call up and help fund something. I would say if you’re fully vested in something in an IRA and something could happen, have a buddy that would be happy to lend your IRA $5,000. This way, when you go in, you’re not like trying to figure out the last minute and it is one phone call away. I’ve been blessed with a lot of friends like that and hopefully, I’ve been a friend like that to others too.
You can be creative. There is creativity and there are options out there. Let’s move this forward to something that I like in the real estate world, which is a tax-deferred exchange, also known as a 1031 exchange. It’s a powerful tool especially when you have real estate that you can now leverage up into more real estate because you’ve got all this equity. You can sell the property and take that equity and purchase more property with it. That’s a sale and a purchase or sale and repurchase. Is that possible or how is that possible to do that within a self-directed retirement account? The way I look at it, that’s a great way to accelerate your tax-free wealth.
It doesn’t play that well. The only way it plays in some esoteric edges where you have some unrelated debt finance income through leverage. You’d buy something that’s more leveraged and you could move it into that. In several years, that hasn’t happened. I look at two things walking side by side. One is with your after-tax money, which is your 1031 exchange and one is with your pretax money, which is with your IRA. It could be post-tax with a Roth.
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This is the end of Part 1. I will continue this conversation with Glen on the next episode. Download your free report, The Ultimate Guide to Passive Real Estate Investing. That will come with a free book once it’s published. It’s almost done. The book is in manuscript form. Get your free strategy session with my team of investment counselors. Just contact us through the website or by phone and we will set up a strategy for you to help you map out your plan from where you are to where you want to get to.
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