Hello my friends. Welcome back to Passive Real Estate Investing where we dive into the world of real estate investing among other related topics. To help you with your real estate investing journey, today we’re doing something a little different. We’re going to take a trip down memory lane and showcase an important episode from the past on what we call our throwback Thursday episode. Now, whether you’ve been with us since the beginning, which goes back to 2015, or you’re tuning in for the first time, this episode is a must listen, we are revisiting one of our more popular episodes from the past, and believe me, what we discussed back then, whether it’s six months ago or six years ago, is just as relevant today. So sit back, relax, and let’s rewind the clock for this great episode. Enjoy.
I’ve picked out five or six questions, covering a range of topics from the emails that I get from our website. And hopefully today we’ll cover some things that will provide you food for thought and help you in your real estate investing journey. And remember, I always say that education is critically important. It can be free. It can be cheap. There are hundreds of thousands of books on Amazon. It doesn’t cost much to educate yourself whether it be through podcasts or books or masterminds or anything else like that. So just dig in and learn what you can you’ll feel better about it. But if you put it to use practical use, it’ll get you further ahead in life, not just with finance investing, but personal development, mentally, spiritually, whatever it may be. I love to read. I try and read as much as I can. Unfortunately, I’m far, far too busy these days to read as much as I’d like to. I’ve got so much going on And with that, let’s jump into some of these questions.
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Throwback Thursday Episode (The episode originally took place in the year 2022)
This episode is part of our Throwback Series and may include references to older content such as web classes, events, promotions, or links that are no longer active or available. While the conversation and insights still hold value, please note that some information may be outdated.
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So the first question comes from Scott. He’s got a question about other people’s money strategies, the pros and cons, and he writes in, he says, hello, Marco, thank you and your team for all that you do in terms of taking care of others, especially when it comes to financial and real estate education.
You’re very welcome. I’m coming across more opportunities to use OPM as in other people’s money and am curious about the various strategies, pros and cons in doing so specifically, I’ve encountered sellers willing to carry 80 to 85% owner financing and APM, which is an acronym for another person’s money to cover the remaining 15 to 20%. That sounds like a great deal, right? So he goes on to say, I can make an argument to make the deal. Even if cash flow is zero, given the principle pay down appreciation and depreciation, that is if the math is right, what kind of terms would you deem favorable for the remaining 15 to 20%? Cheers, Scott, Scott. That is a very good question and very well articulated. And I like your line of thinking, especially if you’re coming across deals today, like this, where you can buy or invest in rental property for essentially nothing down because you’re financing the first 80 to 85% of it.
And in this case, surprisingly with owner financing on top of the fact that you’re borrowing the other 15 to 20%, if you can find those deals, that’s fantastic because if the numbers pencil out, that could be a slam dunk, as long as it’s in a good location. In other words, a good market, good neighborhood, because to me that’s critically important. And remember, as I’ve said, in many episodes in the past, the neighborhood can almost Trump, the market, you can be in a, not so great market. That’s not booming or has strong economics and fundamentals. But if the prospects for that market or city are good long term, the neighborhood will help you weather through storms and survive and just draw from a great tenant demographic. But let’s go back to your question. So if you are you, you mentioned it yourself. Uh, if the math is right, the way I look at it is this.
If you can get seller financing, that means you don’t have to qualify for bank or mortgage lender financing. So that cuts down on time and aggravation and probably some expenses because you don’t have closing costs and lenders fees. So now you’ve got 80 to 85% owner financing covered. What about the other 15 to 20%? Well, that’s the down payment. Now, if you’re saying you can get OPM other people’s money to come in as that down payment, and the terms are favorable where the property can carry itself, or maybe it’s a break, even cash flow or possibly slightly negative, then it may be a doable deal and a good deal. So if it checks all the boxes, the stuff I’ve been talking about, then take a serious, look at it, do a deep dive, do your due diligence, try and uncover all the rocks you can, because if everything checks out, you might have a screaming deal on your hands, because any, anytime you can get into a deal with no money out of pocket or very, very little, you have essentially an infinite rate of return.
And so if that’s the case, it’s basically a great investment with free money going forward. Now, the key thing here is does the property carry itself? If it does, that’s great. If it doesn’t and you have a negative cash flow, then you want to seriously consider the future prospects of the cash flows on that property. Meaning what will the rents be like over the next one to three years? Will they be flat or is there the possibility for those rents to increase in the current marketing conditions we have today in most places around the country, rents are strong and they’re continuing to grow, and that is probably gonna happen for the foreseeable future. The next one to three years, rents still have positive, upward momentum, even though they slow down quite a bit. We’re still seeing rental increases around the country, especially with people who are moving into new leases, not so much renewing because they tend to get a bit of a break, as far as the terms, it’s whatever you can negotiate with.
The people that you’re borrowing the funds from. I assume that this down payment, the 15 to 20% is not coming from the same seller and they’re financing both ends of it. I, I highly doubt that’s the case, but if you’re borrowing that from someone else, someone, you know, or maybe, uh, a HELOC or some sort of line of credit, then you could probably get it at interest only payments and at a fairly aggressive rate. And I’m not sure what HELOC are going at today, but I’m gonna guess they’re probably in the four to five, maybe 6% range of, if you have something below 4%, that’s a screaming deal. So if you’re able to finance this property that way, that’s great. And you gotta think about your exit here, not exit in terms of selling the property, but your exit in terms of being able to repay that 15 to 20% down payment, that you’re borrowing from other people over a period of time.
So the longer the term, the better, if you can get it for five years, 10 years, 20 years, or even 30 years, then that’s ideal, but the longer, the better, because you want to have as much time on your side to be able to repay that whether it’s coming from that property you’re investing in, or some other source or other properties or other investments that you have, because you don’t want a balloon payment at the end of five or 10 years, to repay that down payment financing and be stuck with a balloon payment, especially if it’s secured by the property and they have the ability to foreclose or lean your property. Everything is negotiable. I mean, that’s kind of a, almost a worst case scenario. And if you get to that point, you could probably work it out, but it sounds like you’re on the path to what sounds like a potentially good deal.
And if the numbers pencil out and you can finance the majority of this, or if not, all of it, well, that is a very high cash on cash return, possibly an infinite rate of return if you’re literally coming in with nothing down and, uh, it might be a real winner in the years to come. So again, you know, this is a math question for the most part, location’s important, but pencil out the numbers and do some conservative forecasting. You could do a best case, worst case and expected case scenario. And I like doing that as well. Like, you know, the optimistic, the pessimistic, and the realistic projections. If you do that, then you kind of know what your range is going in as far as best and worst case scenario. All right, Scott, good question. And I hope that helps. I didn’t think it would take me eight minutes to answer that quick question, but I guess it did.
So next question from Jamie, a question about selling or renting. Hello, Marco. I live in the bay area and bought my home in 2012. That was an ideal year to buy. I am looking to move to Bakersfield in a few years. I am not sure whether to sell my home and put a big down payment on a new home, not necessarily a new home, but a home that would have everything me and my wife would want. And only mortgage two to $300,000, or should I rent my home in the bay area and buy something smaller in Bakersfield? My home can rent anywhere from 3,900 to 4,200 a month. And my mortgage is 3,300 a month. Okay. So let’s just say you, you, you can rent it for 4,000 a month. Your mortgage is 3,300. I assume that’s principle and interest. Maybe it includes taxes as and insurance.
If that’s the case, then you’ve got 3,300 in P I T I, the only other expenses left are maintenance and repairs. If you are covering that, if you have an HOA, a homeowner’s association, you know, it’ll add to that. That’s pretty much it. I mean, at that point, you’re pretty much break even. So you have a property in the bay area that can carry itself, maybe generate some positive income, some cash flow since your numbers pencil out. But it sounds like worst case scenario is your break even. So that’s great long term that property will continue to appreciate. So the property price will go up and that may make it worth keeping. Now there’s a question in here that I can’t answer. And it’s more of a, a preferential personal emotional question. And that is what do you and your wife want in the home?
Do you want a big house? Do you want a certain location? That’s costly. If that’s the case, you might need some more capital. If you’re planning to keep the bay area home, then you’re gonna ha need to save more, make more, to come up with larger down payment to get that nicer or bigger house in Bakersfield. You kind of have to wrestle with this and have some conversations with your wife about what’s more important, the nicer, bigger home in Bakersfield and sell the bay area property, and then essentially have no income or rental properties outside your principal residence. But you have a nice home that you can live in and enjoy, or can you make some sacrifice, get something that’s not necessarily ideal or your dream home, but something smaller, but you still have the investment capital parked in that bay area. Home in the form of equity that now is continuing to generate maybe not necessarily income the cash flow, but, but is increasing in value on and off at varying degrees over the years, which adds to your net worth.
And so your equity will grow. I don’t know how old you are or, you know, when you plan to retire, if you ever plan to retire, but my I’m not a big fan of the bay area, just so you know, I think a lot of those areas have been running up too fast and too much. And you can argue that it’s become unaffordable and to some degree, a bit of a bubble market, but that’s not true for all the areas in the bay area. So I’m not sure where your property’s located, but that aside, if you’re in a nice area and it’s a desirable location and neighborhood, it may be worth keeping because odds are that property’s gonna continue to appreciate prices will continue to go up over time because of inflation and because of other factors, supply and demand dynamics, the fundamentals in that market.
So without any more information, I would think that it may be worth keeping the bay area home, getting as much as you can in Bakersfield, just do the best with what you’re working with. And of course you can play with these numbers and you can get a little creative with your financing, you know, in terms of refinancing, if the rates are more favorable for you, it sounds like you probably are not in a position to refinance this. If your mortgage is 3,300, but again, I don’t know what the size of your mortgage is. My guess is that you probably are in a position where it’s more favorable to keep it. And I’ll take that one step further. If you are in a position to refinance that not necessarily right away, but as rates come down, which I expect mortgage rates to come down next year, if you’re in a position to refinance that and pull some equity out, let’s call it a hundred thousand.
It’s, I’m just picking a number outta the air. You can use that a hundred thousand from the equity in your bay area home while you’re living in Bakersfield to use as down payment capital for a third property. So you have your home in Bakersfield, you have your investment or rental property in the bay area, and now you tap into the, some of that equity, not turning yourself completely upside down, but use that to invest in one or two more rental properties in markets that make sense. For example, some of the markets that were in be it the Southeast south Midwest or pockets of the Northeast. So food for thought, just taking this one step further. Again, none of this is financial advice never is never will be, but, uh, something to think about. And if you want to dive a little deeper contact, one of our investment counselors here, just present your situation and just have a conversation there.
I think that might be helpful for you as well. Okay. Thanks for the question, Jamie. So here’s an, interestingly enough, another question that references Bakersfield, I don’t know what it is about Bakersfield today, but, uh, the question is from, I believe the name is Giovanni. They wanting to know what they should do is their next step. And Giovanni writes to me and says, hope you’re doing great, Marco. My name is Giovanni from Bakersfield, California, my wife and I have our first duplex purchased August, 2021. So exactly a year ago. Congratulations. So my question is, do we refinance into a conventional, conventional loan? Okay. And take the equity cash out to purchase a fourplex under an FHA loan for this year as in 2022, or do you have a better suggestion for us? Thank you so much for all your hard work and taking the time to listen to our question.
Well, you’re very welcome. So I don’t have enough information to really answer this. So I’m gonna make some assumptions here based on your question, how you’re asking this, it sounds like you purchased your, this first duplex last year, all cash, because you’re talking about refinancing and taking the equity as cash out. And the fact that you’re mentioning a conventional loan probably tells me that you bought this all cash and now you are essentially financing it in order to do a cash out refinance. So if that’s the case, that’s great. You know, as long as the numbers make sense and you’re not heavily upside down on this thing in terms of cash flow, meaning it’s positive, not negative, then that would be a good strategy. Cuz now you have your tenants live there and pay off your mortgage for you over time. I mean, that’s basically what happens with rental real estate.
So yeah, if you can do a cash-out refi, pull that money out and use that as a down payment towards other properties. For example, the fourplex you mentioned here, then go for it. Now, if you’re mentioning an FHA loan, which is a really low down loan for homeowners, the intention there with an FHA loan is it’s a low down payment mortgage loan for people who are looking for a resonance somewhere to live that’s their primary residence could be a single-family home, but it could also be a fourplex. You could do that. That’s not what they want you to do. And that’s not what they recommend you do because FHA is not meant for investors. It’s really meant for homeowners, but I know people do it all the time, not suggesting it recommending it or advocating it, you know, intentions change, you know, in that loan process or even thereafter.
And I’ve known people who’ve, you know, bought under FHA, lived in the property for a short period of time. It could even be six months then decide, well, you know, we’re gonna move to another place or another city and they just keep the, uh, original property with the FHA loan and lease it out, whether self-managed or with professional property management. So to your question, do you have a better suggestion? Well, I’m not sure what a better suggestion is. I mean, if FHA is the only way to go, maybe that is your only option and there is really nothing for me to suggest or recommend, but if you can get a conventional loan, cuz it sounds like you may be qualifying for conventional financing anyway, given your question, then finance it with, you know, 20% down, if you can pull that cash out from your original duplex.
So I’m not sure what more to tell you. I mean, that’s kind of a, a very general and somewhat vague question, not a criticism. And just saying that I just don’t have enough to work with here to give you more direction. But your line of thinking is in the right place, you know, you’re, you’re looking at how can you build this portfolio of yours and how can you leverage up your investment capital? What I wouldn’t do of course is leave all my cash in the property without mortgage financing, if it’s a rental property. So that duplex you bought a year ago, I would do what you can to refinance as much. Well, as much as you want, but whatever cash out you can get, if you can do it conventional, great. If that is not gonna work because you can’t qualify for conventional, but you think you do qualify for non-conventional financing, which just has higher rates, similar terms, but slightly higher rates, then look into a non-QM or non-conventional financing source. So, Giovanni, I hope that helps you if not contact my team and you know, we can help you lay out a plan to make this work. All right.
The next question was a little bit complicated for me to understand. I still don’t fully understand it. So I’m gonna do my best to dissect and reverse engineer. This, it comes from Darrell, someone in Utah, and Darrell says Marco in March of 2021, we closed on an investment property partnership. And he in brackets here explains what it was. It’s three town homes that he bought at $280,000 each with a 25% down payment and financing at a very favorable three and 1.2, 5%. So that sounds like a real winner to me right there. So this partnership was with a realtor who had multiple properties tied up pre-construction and pre COVID at closing. The values were around $350,000. So that’s significant price appreciation there and now are valued near 480 to $500,000. So from 280,000, that’s, that’s almost double so that you’re, you’re close to $500,000. He says it’s a 35-65 split the realtor secured the preconstruction deals and flipped for closing fees and manages them. Okay. I’m not sure what you mean by flipped for. Oh, I see. I think they included their closing fees as part of the purchase. So the realtor gets 35% equity and cash flow and Darrell says I’m responsible for financing and payments.
All right. His question is this. Now that we have secured that equity and really don’t want to give any more future growth up along with cash flow and, and understanding the game a little more. We want to sell and do our own thing. But with the higher interest rates and a possible slowing market, I’m trying to decide if I’d be better off to stay in our contract or sell, do a 1031 exchange purchase more properties at the new and improved interest rates. I don’t know if I’d call that improved interest rates, but certainly higher interest rates signed stumped in Utah county. all right, Darrell. Well, I’d like to be a here asking you questions to clarify more of this, but I’m making the assumption that you essentially have a three way partnership here with this real estate agent. So they’re on title. They own the property with you.
So if you were to sell, they would have to sell unless they buy you out, which is a possibility if, if they’re up to it and they have the cash or you guys can figure out a way to refinance these properties where they can pay you off, but you have the lion share here almost two thirds at, at 35 65 split. So one option might be to work something out where you buy your realtor partner out of the equation. If it sounds like there’s enough equity there to come close and do this where you refinance, unfortunately you’re gonna be taking an interest rate hit, but you could refinance and pull some of that equity out in the form of cash, pay off your partner and then just retain a hundred percent ownership of this. That would be one way to go about it. The other way is if you want out of the deal to take your equity and move on to the next deal, doing a 1031 exchange, the only way you can do that with a 1031 exchange is if you’re actually selling the property.
Now, I’m not sure under 1031 rules, if you can sell that to your realtor partner, who’s already on title and one of the owners and, um, have them refinance you out and they stay on title and allow you to qualify to take that equity out and do a 1031 exchange into some other properties. If that’s doable, that’s an interesting option. Something you might wanna look into and consider. The first thing I would do if I were you is just take five or 10 minutes, quick phone call to any of the 1031 exchange accommodations. And just present this scenario, ask them if that’s possible, if it’s not possible, because it won’t allow you to do the 1031 tax-deferred exchange. Then this is not an option. It comes off the table. But what’s interesting here is you’ve got a lot of equity, very favorable financing properties that sound like they cash flow.
Well, you own two thirds of these three properties. I don’t fully understand why you just don’t stay in the deal. I’m not sure where these are located. I’m guessing they’re probably in Utah as well, which has been a very strong market. It has cooled down a little bit recently, but there are still very strong fundamentals, strong job market. There is still demand there. People are still moving to Utah and salt lake from all over the place. You know, especially California. I don’t see a strong or compelling reason to sell and get out of this deal. It sounds like you’ve done very well and there’s still positive prospects and forward momentum to stay in this. And if you are not killing each other as partners and you get along, I don’t see why, you know, you have a compelling need to sell. Now. I think you are in a better position than your realtor partner at a 35% equity position, because it’s easier for you to refinance them out then for them to take the deal from you and try to cash you out of that deal.
So you might want to have that conversation with your realtor partner. Again, I don’t have more information than what you’ve given me here in a short email, but I guess those are some options and thoughts to consider and hopefully, uh, it comes together for you again, if you know, if you need a hand, you could probably contact my team here and they can kick it around for you a little bit. All right. Okay. Darrell, thanks for the question. I appreciate it. So I have two more questions here, but I’m gonna table one of them for my next ask Marco recording, which I intend to do next week, but I will answer this one. It’s a little unrelated to real estate, but it’s interesting because it’s kind of funny when I get questions about, I don’t know, personal things, you know, such as what do I like to do for fun movies, music, entrepreneurship, things that are not related to real estate.
I like those questions and not opposed to them. And I’m happy to answer them. In fact, what I should be doing is taking those questions and answering them in a 30 or 62nd video that I just post on social media, which I am not overly active on, but I should be more. And I probably will be more here in the coming months. I actually intend to. But this question was interesting from Christian, someone who I met down at, uh, rub con last year, the real estate wealth builders conference. And he wanted to know how to become an entrepreneur, which I thought was a very interesting question. I’m not even sure there’s an answer to that question. I think you just know it. You feel it. If you want to be an entrepreneur, it’s just something you pursue. But Christian writes to me and says, hi, Marco, it was nice talking to you in person at rub con 22.
I hope I see you next year. Again. I think I’ll probably be there. I was the keynote speaker this year and I’ll probably be invited back as the keynote speaker next year. Questions. How do I become an entrepreneur? And is there a step-by-step guidebook to becoming an entrepreneur? I wish it was that simple and that easy. Sincerely Christian being an entrepreneur is something that you want to do. You know, you have a burning desire and a gut feel and the ambition to do something that is beyond just a job. It’s not something that comes with a step-by-step guidebook. It’s not something that you can just implant in yourself or take a pill or, you know, just change what you’re doing and automatically become an entrepreneur. It’s, it’s a journey. It’s something that you have to have a desire, maybe a burning desire for a passion, for something, something that is bigger and beyond you.
It’s not just thinking big. It’s thinking really big. What you don’t want to do is be what is called a technician. If you’ve heard of the book, the E myth, which was rewritten by Michael Gerber until the E myth revisited. And by the way, you can go back to some previous episodes. I, I, I forgot when I interviewed him, but I, I I’ve had Michael Gerber on the show. It was probably a year or two ago. I can’t even remember. I have to look up that episode, but you know, the technician is someone who’s really good at what they do. They really know their craft. They’re, they’re sharp. You know, whether it’s a programmer or a plumber or whatever it is, but the technician really knows what they’re doing. They they’re good with their, their hands. They’re good with their mind and they can fulfill a job like no one else, but they don’t necessarily know how to manage a business or manage themselves or run a business nor do they necessarily have the skills to be an entrepreneur or a visionary.
And so they become an accidental entrepreneur. They think they own a business. They get into a situation where they’re working to build a business, but really it’s just a one man show. They’re a solo printer. The business is themselves. So they’ve just gone from knowing how to do something very well to try and build that as a business and where I think a lot of entrepreneurs want to be entrepreneurs fail is they just don’t recognize or understand how do I scale this business? How do I turn it from being a job or a trade into a real business where I actually have a team employees and staff to fulfill that, those marketing functions, those operating functions, the fulfillment and delivery of the product or service, you know, that’s when you start to become a true business owner and that’s where your entrepreneurship starts to show up, whether it’s learned or you just have it, you know, deep in your gut.
But it’s a hard question to answer because I, I don’t know what you know, or where you are in your journey, which can be a very wide range. You know, I think the best advice I can give you is maybe one start looking on Amazon for books on entrepreneurship and I’ll guarantee you you’ll find thousands of them. There’s all kinds of books on entrepreneurship and business. The E myth revisited is maybe a great place to start because it’ll show you essentially the three camps that you sit in. Not necessarily all of them at the same time, but you could be, but most entrepreneurs start off as technicians. You know, they’re just they’re skill that they’re trade or craft. Um, but read as many books as possible on entrepreneurship and then, you know, branch out into mindset and, you know, business related books on how do I start a business, that kind of stuff, but start with entrepreneurship.
And then second hang around other entrepreneurs, people who are actually doing well and doing great things and not as solo printers, like there’s a lot of consultants out there and coaches and solo entrepreneurs. One man shows, you know, they are the business. They, they have a business because they are the business, but it’s not truly a big business. It’s just, you own your job rather than working a job for someone else, another company or employer, you actually own your own job. So you’ve just, just shifted from working for someone else to working for yourself. And sometimes you’re probably, you know, a worse boss than the boss you just had. So you’re not doing yourself a favor, but if you hang out with other entrepreneurs and business owners, they can teach you more about real world street smarts, then probably any other college program out there.
So that’s called networking, which, you know, just to kind of throw this back into the loop. The reason I attend masterminds and I have for many, many years is because of two things, the content and the networking, the content is the education, the speakers, the things you learn from the other members, that’s all great stuff. It helps you to learn, grow and do more things, bigger things, figure out problems and come up with solutions. But the other thing too, is that networking. And so I always learn from other people on business, building ideas, tactics, marketing ideas, and all that good stuff. So, you know, you might want to consider looking for entrepreneurial groups, entrepreneurial meetups, maybe entrepreneurial masterminds. So that’s the approach I would take. You know, you just, can’t flip a switch and become an entrepreneur. It’s, it’s something you want to pursue, recognizing yourself, be prepared for a long, hard journey.
You’re gonna step on a lot of landmines. You’re gonna fall down and get cuts and bruises. You gotta pick yourself up. You have to have resiliency and you have to be somewhat tenacious. And I, I will say, not everybody is cut out to be an entrepreneur. Not everybody can be an entrepreneur. Everybody can try, but not everybody’s gonna do well or make it. Some people just don’t have the patience, the tenacity, the thick skin, or the grit. Grit is a big thing, the grit and what it’s gonna take to last and succeed as an entrepreneur, you have to remember that most businesses, most businesses, new businesses fail within the first two years. You know, it’s a very high failure rate. If you pass the two year mark, that’s a major milestone. If you make it past five years, that’s a huge milestone. So I sound like I’m on a soapbox.
I’ll step down here. But yeah, hopefully that helps Christian, you know, just start with talking to people that are entrepreneurs and, and start reading some books on entrepreneurship. All right, Christian, I hope that helps. I appreciate the question.
I hope you enjoyed this week’s throwback Thursday episode. If you haven’t already, remember to subscribe so you don’t miss out on a single episode. If you have a question about real estate investing or finance, simply go to passiverealestateinvesting.com and click the Ask Marco button. . I read all of them, I reply to many of them, and sometimes I cover them on the show, and I’m gonna try and do more of that. So, I am going to encourage you to go to passiverealestateinvesting.com and submit your question for Ask Marco. Lastly, help us share the show with other like-minded people that you know who can benefit from it as well. Just visit us on your platform. Most of you are on iTunes and leave us a rating and review. I would greatly appreciate it. I read them all and I will thank you in advance. And that is it for today. Thanks for listening. I will see you on our next episode.
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